Author Topic: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?  (Read 8154 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« on: March 19, 2025, 06:39:14 pm »
Hello

Yes, again, the typical thread for brainstorming about the future of OS/2 and ArcaOS.

On Dec of 2023 I sent the attached wish list document to Lewis based on past discussions.

Today ArcaOS is running on UEFI and finally has some language localizations like German, Spanish, and Russian.

It seems to me that the top requirements from the perspective of the OS are still:
1) Modern web browser
2) Wifi Driver.

What do you think it is missing or what had changed from 2023's wishlist to today?

On the other hand, what else can it be interesting to do as a community?

Regards

Martin Iturbide
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Mentore

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2025, 07:59:18 am »
Hello

Yes, again, the typical thread for brainstorming about the future of OS/2 and ArcaOS.

On Dec of 2023 I sent the attached wish list document to Lewis based on past discussions.

Today ArcaOS is running on UEFI and finally has some language localizations like German, Spanish, and Russian.

It seems to me that the top requirements from the perspective of the OS are still:
1) Modern web browser
2) Wifi Driver.

What do you think it is missing or what had changed from 2023's wishlist to today?

On the other hand, what else can it be interesting to do as a community?

Regards

Being both a developer and an user, I can see from both sides.
Yes, we need drivers and yes, we need a modern web browser.
For these targets to be, eherm, targeted, we need developers.

It seems to me that on OS/2 we have gone back to the '80s era, when there was no software and you had to build it yourself. This is pretty bad-looking from a common user's point of view: we are really used to the plain and simple "I need some software to do XY, I search on the 'net for XY, I find the software, I install it, I'm more or less satisfied, case closed". This is not really the case on OS/2.

So something good to do would be to nurture a little more our shrinking developers' community.
I'm really afraid this would be a HUGE task, but I feel this should be some starting point to try and obtain something more from this old beloved beast.

Mentore

Andi B.

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2025, 09:24:28 am »
My top priorities would be -
1) stable operation on Ryzen7 either with integrated graphic or external (at least AMD B550) without trap when Virtualaddresslimit is above 1536 and 3140x2160 resolution. If you see the ticket you know what I mean in detail.
2) solving PM (GPI, gradd, Panorama, ??) problems which leads to no window update anymore after some time or when memory gets low (usually seen with VBOX running, but pretty sure not a VBOX problem only, but mem management and graphic)

Regarding browser I fear we never ever will have a browser with the features I need (I'm used to) again. So no priority for me. Dooble works to some extend and I appreciate the efforts made here. But it never will get the features I'm used to from SM or FF.


Silvan Scherrer

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2025, 03:39:47 pm »
As long as we can't fix the memory issues (4GB border), everything else is more or less useless. And I doubt we ever get this one fixed.
kind regards
Silvan
CTO bww bitwise works GmbH

Please help us with donations, so we can further work on OS/2 based projects. Our Shop is at https://www.bitwiseworks.com/shop/index.php

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2025, 04:12:58 pm »
Hello.
As long as we can't fix the memory issues (4GB border), everything else is more or less useless. And I doubt we ever get this one fixed.

I guess that just as USB 3 or UEFI was a blocker to run OS/2, I guess this is our new blocker. Not a blocker to run OS/2 on hardware, but to have modern software compiled on it.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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JTA

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2025, 05:00:53 pm »
Always interesting to see how folks solve, or don't solve, technical issues at the OS level. If you can come at the problems with an open mind to all possibilities, the range of solutions also opens up.

If you run OS/2 (ArcaOS) directly on hardware, then yes there will be lots of issues, notwithstanding AN's efforts to work through them. You'll get the 4GB ram limit, no selection of modern browsers or other 64-bit software, and so on.

If you run OS/2 in one (or more!) VM's with a 64-bit HostOS (win, linux) controlling the hardware, then you get all the resources of the 64-bit hardware and 64-bit modern OS delivered to OS/2. You'll get 64-bit apps (via Winflector), NTFS or Linux FS's as the filesystem, no driver issues to speak of, and modern OS/2 (ArcaOS) running at near native speed.

Run two VM's, and you start to move past native OS/2 4GB ram limitations with workarounds (two os/2's in vm's offering up to 8GB ram to native os/2 apps).

Modern hardware is inexpensive, and gives us 64-bit cpu's, 16/32/64gb of ram and ssd's. With Virtualbox or similar, you get at all of that. Once the HostOS is in place, you can spend more time doing things with os/2, versus fighting problems, or worse, giving up on os/2.

Spread this message to new developers, and you'll start to build up that core again of development interest. Think of the possibilities of:
- 1 os/2 vm as your daily driver, serving up any 64-bit app, or even local AI, via Winflector
- 1 or 2 other os/2 vm's dedicated to the os/2 compiler environment
- other vm's hosting specific job engines or other specializations
- HostOS providing security, backup, and more to all vm's
- all running on 1 inexpensive laptop/desktop

How hard is this to do? 1.) Grab a spare machine. 2.) Install Windows Pro (or any Linux). 3.) Install Virtualbox and Winflector. 4.) Install ArcaOS in one or more vm's ...

... and get to work doing whatever you want in OS/2, vs fighting problems in OS/2.

Full details are over in the virtualization sub-forum, but really aren't necessary if you are comfortable with the above 4 steps.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 05:09:13 pm by JTA »

Ibrahim Hakeem

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2025, 06:05:04 pm »
With the amount of software we'd need to port to bring OS/2 to a viable level, I'd be interested to see how much we could leverage AI to do some of the heavy-lifting.

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2025, 08:46:51 pm »
to JTA:
the idea to put OS/2 into VM host was discussed since 2000, Kim Cheung have spend many efforts to this project:
https://en.os2.guru/projects/reviews/index.php?id=263
(https://ru.os2.guru/projects/reviews/index.php?id=263)

The developers have discussed this in the past.
* yes. this approach is good *for some* users, consumers
* no, this will immediately kill OS/2. no need to develop code for OS/2 if every user can jump to windows/linux and run win/lin application with one click.

So, conlusion: OS/2 is alive while it can run on real hardware, while it's fighting for the life.

JTA

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2025, 12:33:48 am »
I'm not sure how much it matters if the "idea" of running os/2 in vm's has been in existence since 2000 ... what comes together right now, in just the past few years, is lots of technology ... new/improved:
- hardware: faster cpu's with more cores, lots of ram, super-fast ssd's ... all on one inexpensive machine
- software: virtualization, winflector

If you use os/2, and want to do more with it than running native, more tools in the toolbox gives us options right now. We can do things that weren't available back then:
- virtualbox lets us run multiple vm's on one machine, introducing new ways to use os/2
- winflector lets us run any 64-bit app right now inside of os/2, vs waiting for that browser to come along, or waiting for that port to finish.
- existing os/2 developers can use these new tools in the toolbox to speed up os/2 development right now
- new os/2 developers aren't running constrained on one box, trying to shoehorn everything into 4gb ram on a 32gb machine ... they can expand immediately into more vm's doing more work for them. If we give them a highly tuned dev vm, they can run two or more, alongside their os/2 desktop vm, compiling in some and testing in others.

And, yes ... consumers (all the rest of us) can explore os/2 among many other os's, which shouldn't necessarily kill off os/2. It might expand the pool of folks who find, play with, and come to love os/2 anew:
- os/2 runs perfectly in a vm, yet runs with all kinds of problems natively ... run it in a vm, and you are instantly in business, alongside all your other efforts, on one machine
- explore all the old os/2 (or dos, or win) apps, and perhaps find new ways to bring them back into production ... if it runs in a vm, it's no longer tied to any new hardware/software that forces many os's or apps into retirement.

I respect folks that want to run native ... please do so, if that is your thing.

But adding more tools to the toolbox shouldn't be a bad thing, because who knows what the next generation of os/2 users will do with them. New users might become new developers.

os/2 might be dead (to me) if I hadn't played with it again in the past few years, discovered new tools to resolve all the current issues in this forum, and gotten it to the point where I have time now to explore all the new things I can now do with it, vs fighting it to resolve all its native problems.

progress should be happening on all fronts ...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2025, 12:36:03 am by JTA »

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2025, 12:48:05 am »
This relates to economics. better tell "housekeeping".

Imagine that OS/2 it's a small village.

you offer import all milk, bread and water from large powerful city located nearby to our small village.
so what will happen? what will happen with the residents of our village?
where the residents will find money to pay for the milk? what they will do without local small factories and farms?

No,
we should generate products by ourselves.
Moreover, OS/2 village is so weak  that it's necessary prohibit relocation to the large city.
(= prohibit usage of vitual machines in OS/2)

Remember, Virtual machines are created by the owners of giant powerful OSes to kill small / legacy / old OSes.

OK, the thread is related to OS/2 Whatsnext.

Mentore

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2025, 08:29:27 am »
Hello.
As long as we can't fix the memory issues (4GB border), everything else is more or less useless. And I doubt we ever get this one fixed.

I guess that just as USB 3 or UEFI was a blocker to run OS/2, I guess this is our new blocker. Not a blocker to run OS/2 on hardware, but to have modern software compiled on it.

Regards

Looking at all the troubles Dave Yeo and Paul Smedley are going through to port Qt 5/6 and Dooble / Otter / other browsers, yes, this is one of the key points we likely will not be able to address.
So two solutions come to mind: open up a niche (not ours) with specific interest, or try to push again for the kernel (at least) source.
Which, likely, is impossible to achieve.

Mentore

Paul Smedley

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2025, 09:10:43 am »
Not wanting to be negative, but even *compiling* qtwebengine is a PITA due to memory exhaustion - let alone running the thing.....

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2025, 11:36:29 am »
Wifi Driver - what to do?

* the development requires many efforts.
* how many users need wifi?
** all users with os/2 laptops are connected to internet via ethernet already
** yes, wifi will help them if go to public places. yes, it's important in hotels.

* so, how many users really need wifi today, at friday? 10 users or 30 users?
30 users, every one has different model of wifi adapter. manufactured in 2006 year, 2008, 2010, .. 2015, 2022, 2025, ...
* conclusion: every os/2user has different wifi. you will never meet the requirements of our wifi users.


Temporary solution:
there are ethernet to wifi access points.
Blonde Guy mentioned it 100 times:
https://www.blondeguy.com/
https://www.blondeguy.com/TravelRouters.html

I tried to use this adapters during os/2 conferences.
and I failed because hotels interfere into the traffic and show dialogs to verify you, get money, etc. and our web-browser can't process this dialogs, as I understand.
so, this adapters are unusable usually.

So, better spend "virtual 10 000 euro, 20 000 euro"  into web-browser development. instead of driver development (if we see that it requires too many efforts).
So the web-browser will correctly process all this modern javascript, .. dialogs and allow to connect to modern wifi network.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2025, 11:55:10 am by Eugene Gorbunoff »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2025, 01:14:30 pm »
Hello Mentore

So two solutions come to mind: open up a niche (not ours) with specific interest, or try to push again for the kernel (at least) source.


This had been always interesting for me:
1) The Open up a niche, even that I have tried to think about this it gets hard.
2) Pushing for an open kernel. There are dreams of replacing only our kernel and leave the rest (CPI-PM-SOM-WPS) thinking it's running over the OS/2 kernel. I know it may be hard, the most known kernel today is Linux, but I'm tempted to see other kernels (since we are multikernel guys), like Zircon or the Haiku OS kernel. But it required deep knowledge of both kernels and hard work to try to connect CPI and $DRIVERS to a different kernel. I want to brainstorm about this on a different thread.

Regards

« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 02:02:59 am by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Dave Yeo

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Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2025, 04:14:09 pm »
Another up coming problem is IPv6, which luckily for us is taking forever to catch on. Eventually we would need a new network stack.